I understand that this post is going to make me highly unpopular in the casa, however i feel i must fight for the kitten as she is not able to fight for herself. I love the kitten, i think she brings something wonderful and new to the house, she forces thoes living in the house to meet new challenges and to accept responsibility for a life outside of their own. The casa is a living breathing community and we all share in the every day running of it without complaint so why can't the kitten become a part of that daily life?
I accept that ideally the kitten would run free in the wild and catch her own food, but then ideally, so would we. House cats can live a happy and fulfilled life, and going by her behaviour up until now i don't think she is at all depressed, she seems to rather enjoy the busy happenings of the casa and especially loves all the new people who come by and pet her.
I know that i'm not going to be here forever and that others who take my place in the casa will have to deal with decisions we make now but hasn't it always been like this? The kitten is just one more part of the casa to make it a little more special.
Right, now thats all said i await the onslaught of comments daming me for my unhippyness. Be gentle. x
Comments
solutions
I think this is the last thing i am going to write about the kitten, i agree with Sarah that the topic should close pretty soon as i don't know about the rest of you but its getting a little tense, uncomfortable and boring to keep saying the same things over and over again.
Ineke's mum has kindly donated a kitty box with a lid and a cat flap so we can have the kitty litter inside in the winter. I know there is some concern about the smell but you will understand that won't be a problem when you see this marvelous contraption which i will bring back with me tomorrow. I think if we/I reshuffle some things underneath the oven i can fit it in quite comfortably thus solving the problem of the cat shitting everywhere and the heat being lost from the door being open. So I think that will solve most of the issues with the kitten no?
Also Ineke's mum has found out that the kitten may be able to be spayed for free in october, i will ask her more about this and see whether it is possible for our kitten. If not there is an insurance plan which costs 8 euro a month and therefore can simply be included in the cost of the casa. That way no one will feel like they are paying extra for the kitten to be there, it will just be another part of casa life.
AS to whether we are giing her a good life, that will forever be debatable so i think we should just let that one drop...she is here and we love her and she certainly seems to love us. If she becomes depressed then we can go over that issue again but at least for now she is happy and so should we be.
I hope this has solved most of the problems, as i said i'm not going to talk about it anymore, as many of you saw it got a bit personal for me and i don't want this disscussion to affect how i am treated/thought of in the casa. This is my assertive streak officially over, i will hence forth go back to being a maliable fence sitter :)
where the shit-box should be
I think that the only possible place for that thing is under the map and the bikes keys, in the corridor. That way it won´t affect the food nor anyone´s sleep. Also, it always smells like Shaun´s shit in the corridor anyways.
ya for sure, there is lots of
ya for sure, there is lots of extra room in our tiny hallway, espically for cat shit!
i want my shitbox on the
i want my shitbox on the balcony, in the place where you normally put your dumpster dived food, Especially, because I can hear the mice from there from the neighboor!
Also, I want little doors for myself in the normal doors so I don't have to fucking miauw all the time to let you guys let me in.
I also want robino to come back!
sounds like a good idea. we
sounds like a good idea. we got a new litter box today as well but yours is prolly better. i think cat shit in the kitchen is not so nice, but im sure we can fit it in the torture room if we organize it better. we could just leave the door a bit open or put that cat door on it instead.
I'm concern with the idea of
I'm concern with the idea of the cat box (even if it is the best ever) being under the oven. I think it is highly unhygienic. And it is not a question of smell.
the cat is being really nice
the cat is being really nice today ( after pissing in the slag room that is) so it's really hard to have hard feelings towards her.
i think the casa can deal with having a cat and noone is gonna die for having to clean blankets every once in a while. but since we're trying to mantain a sustainable community, it just seems absurd to stress the fact that we have responsabiity to keep the cat if the problems overcome the "positive". maybe our real duty is to assure kitten the best home. certainly not a home of people who are getting more and more frustrated about what to do to solve her problems. can we make her happy? is she making us happy? is something good coming out of this?
the hard part is: we're thinking all day about how to make this better and the solution is far from being found. it would be best for th cat to be able to get outside but she's gonna get stuck on the stairs and carving hole through the building's doors seems a bit violent. i just don't know.
we either accept to clean the piss or start praying.
Miaou (in french version)
Wow, the whole situation with the cat sound pretty dificult to handle. The ones who know me will guess what is my point of view but I don't feel the need to express it:)
In any case it is an interesting test for the casa, how the decisions are made there, definitions of priorities, how to handle responsabilities, somehow balance of power and collective intelligence.
Good luck to all of you, saludos desde Argentina (Where I met an amazing hitchhiker group, hope to post about it soon)
Unos abrazos fuertes
PS: And in any cases I CAN also do the kitten!
cat
latest cat update
currently she purring and sleeping on my belly
last night we made sure the doors were open and the cat box was clean. so.... kitty had a nice shit in robins bed next to our new husband and wife host. they were a bit uncomfortable but handeled the situation well and decided not to leave.
our creative minds have not yet made the kitty door but thats ok for now as its not too cold for door to be a bit open. we did make a roof over the cat box and keeping the bedroom door closed, but again today before she shit in the box outside she went in the orange room for a big stinky piss on the bed. it soaked in nice but at least it wasnt shit.
she has yet to mark the zula.
maybe she is just still a bit freaked out about her flight to the ground, but the first time she shit the bed was before that happended.
whatever the problem is we have to help her, this cant continue
fuck!
fuck!
territory
sometimes cats shit and piss on things as a way of marking their territory.
if a cat pisses on something, then you either must A. get rid of that thing, or B. NEUTRALIZE the odor.
a cat's nose has a wider range of ability than our noses do, despite the difference in size.
if a cat smells its own piss somewhere, it will continue to piss there.
cat piss is very alkaline because of its high ammonia content, and it needs to be treated with something acidic, such as vinegar.
i used to have two cats, and when we got a third, my two started pissing and shitting in things because they were afraid and upset about the new change, which brought up the question of territory.
i let my cats take a short vacation from my house, and a friend hosted them for a few days in a neutral space. they were afraid, but initially, he left them in a safe, warm bathroom with the door closed and plenty of places to hide, until they felt comfortable enough to wander around his entire home.
meanwhile, i cleaned my apartment thoroughly. they had pissed on my bed, in my friend's favorite shoes, and many times on the hardwood floors. they shat in my basil plant, after ravenously eating my chamomile plant, and this was not to say that they weren't amply fed beforehand...
after about a week, they returned home to a cleaned apartment. they seemed happy to be back.
i then let our third new cat take a short vacation while my cats got accustomed to their surroundings.
when the third cat returned to the scenario, there were far less problems than before, although we eventually decided that it was best to find the third cat a different permanent residence.
the moral of the story is this:
the kitten is probably afraid and slightly uncomfortable, even if she wasn't in the past.
the kitten is a delight to have around, and we would like for her to feel happy and comfortable.
casa people need to keep the house clean, and also to effectively clean or replace anything that she soils.
casa people need to keep her litter box clean and make sure she is well cared for.
the kitten should be able to overcome her "problem" if these conditions are met, however the fall might have been traumatic to some extent, and we should allow her some time to cope in the meanwhile.
well the house has been very
well the house has been very clean before and after the shitting. im doubting if she is afraid or uncomfortable as her behaviour is still the same as before, sleeping on us, trying to eat with us, being crazy, purring, being a funny cat. she surely relaxed. and im sure you know we are cleaning anythin she soils. these are things and place where we have to sleep after all. her litter is cleaned often, she is cared for and loved. and remember this problem started before her fall.
so....any other ideas how to help her?
She needs a name
I totally agree with Amylin.
Vinegar was the right solution to the piss on the bed :)
I think she could be a bit stressed out after falling off the balcony... which would explain the pissing/shitting (we all know that the only time she shitted inside it was because she couldn't go outside)
The more it goes, the more I am convinced that now it's too late to let the kitten go. Even if we didn't all choose to have her at home, now she's here and we're responsible for her.
So... I believe it's high time to end the poll, and to welcome her for good.
the poll can go on and on
the poll can go on and on, it now says spinach is her name, noboday calls her that. really does it matter if we all have different names for her, or none at all? will she not know we are talking to or about her unless we use a name? will we forget that she is here or confuse her with another cat? does she care?
is there a real need
i think for people a fall
i think for people a fall might be quite stressful but a cat might not think about it that much
on here and in the casa these
on here and in the casa these days we have only been calling her kitten, the kitten. so i guess that is her name. i think she loves it, she purrs when we say it and i can see happiness in her eyes
well for sure like iv been
well for sure like iv been saying the door to the balcony must stay open until there is a cat door even though some people think the cat will tell us when it needs to go out. although sadly i think its a bit funny that adan slept in her shit all night, sorry man.
but why did she go off the balcony? usually cats dont just fall off things, they are pretty good on their feet. maybe she just wanted to explore something other then this apartment. i think a kitty cat rope bridge would be fun like charlie was saying. i know if i was a cat i would be easily bored staying in a small area. id hate to see her like this again with a hurt leg (hope its not broken) and cut face. can we start to let her be in outdoor/indoor cat? why does she always have to stay in the casa? iv had lots of cats that were fine outside in the city. if she learns where the door is then she will always go there when she wants to come in. she will be fine outside during the day and in the evening we can let her in for the night. then i dont think she will shit in the house again or jump off the balcony
update on kitten's health
Kitten has two broken toes and no outstanding vet bill.
why did the cat jump?
Over a breakfast dominated by theories of why the cat shit on our best duvet in the middle of the night, little kitten was nowhere to be found. She was probably embarrased by the accident and was hiding, was the main conjecture.
Little did we know, kitten had finally found her way onto the balcony, through the rails and into the air. Our neighbors had found her and put signs around the neighborhood advertising a "kleine grys puesje" had been found. How scary it must have been for a little gray kitten to fall three stories.
Now the kitten has gone to the vet, and there are three euros in the donation box.
Tensions are mounting.
flying punkies
It reminded me one phrase of Miles Davis:
"If you are creating your own shit, even the sky ain't a limit".
In PachaMama (my home) we also have a cat (female) that shits on (favourite) things. She shits whenever she doesnt agree with reality. Therefore we suppose that she is a Punk.
Anyway, your cat must be really intelligent. After reading what I wrote yesteday she thought that the only way to stay in CasaRobino is to jump out of the balcony.
Isn't she verbose enough?
Stupid humans, how long will it take you to understand that she has already chosen? Even being vegan apparently doesnt disturb her.
Enjoy breathing,
Maga y Rasbalha
PS.: We would love to pay you a visit one day but we still have no answer if Rasbalhas are allowed in casarobino...
Solutions
Well, responding despite not being there (yet, I will arrive in a few days):
I can build a cat-door, with some form of relatively weather-proofing, whatever it takes.
I agree that the cat should be spayed, though I do not know the costs. How much is it? Personally, I would have no problem paying for that, because I absolutely love cats.
Is it possible for someone to look around for co-op'd vet care? I know that it exists in the states, but do not know about the rules in the Netherlands.
Also, is the cat being vegetarian an issue? If so, I can ask a friend (ex-girlfriend), who's animals are all (to my knowledge) vegetarian at least.
Spoke to Ali, my ex, whom
Spoke to Ali, my ex, whom tried to have vegetarian cats. Apparently their bodies are pretty well wired for meat...and lots of meat. Sorry.
humans vs humans /animals and animals
I will tell you the story how one day I became companion ("owner") of a dog.
As I considered myself as a traveller and I was rather homeless at that time, I didnt think I could "have" a dog. Unfortunately, I met this unwanted young dog being, seeking guidence and protection. So therefore I started thinking. "Dear me, I love this dog, but actually, can I afford having a dog? How will I travel (read: hitchhike)?" (And all this bla bla bla thinking, I could see all possible obstacles and even more)
I was thinking and hasitating so much about what "should" I do, that during long time I was unable to take any decision.
And it might have lasted forever, but one day the dog had an accident with a car. Then I KNEW what to do.
-------------------
Sometimes things are obvious, we just dont want to see them.
Dont forget that every problem has a solution, so in fact problems dont exist if there is a will. And even less future problems. Fear is not a good guide in taking decision. And I think that none ideology, no metter how glorious would be, should make us act despite of our nature/heart/passion/will.
-------------------
My dog is carnivorous, as it is his nature. Being carnivorous is a part of reality we live in, whatever our morality thinks about that. I do not feel that humans should impose their ideologies upon other species.
I recycle and cook meat for my dog, even though we were always living in vegetarian/vegan places.
I wish you, my beloved Casa, that this conflict dissolves:)
Enjoy the Full Moon:)
Maga y Rasbalha
On your knees, humans
The kitten rules us all, I hope you realize. She is our master.
OK so she can't feed herself or do self-raki or clean the litterbox or anything. As proper slaves we must provide these things for her.
Scraps from the butcher is a great idea. The main point of having a vegetarian kitchen at the Casa is, if I am not mistaken, to keep the place as welcoming as possible for everyone - if meat is in the dishes, some folks would feel ostracized. Vegan is even better. But cooking cat food, although this is a smelly process... would this really make any humans feel less welcome? "It's for the cat!" She could even eat the meat meals outside. And drama can be fun!! Especially in the disco.
And anyway, I don't think a vegetarian diet, or even a vegan one, would be unhealthy for the cat. It actually sounds like a way for all us humans to be more aware of what WE are eating, by making sure the food the cat receives is balanced and nutritious. And I just won't believe the cat doesn't eat vegetarian table scraps - of course she'll like it.
Other options that come to mind: instead of smelly meat cooking once a week, maybe it would be enough protein or whatever to simply add chicken stock to the veggie cat food. There are powder supplements that can be added, ok sure it might be promoting the meat industry, hmm... maybe there are concentrates of taurine, arachidonic acid, provitamin A, B12, niacin, and thiamin made from plants, or at least from not-meat sources.
Maybe one could cook dumpstered meat somewhere else.
MAYBE she should be let out to get her own food...from the bin or... from the trees... use the claws, use the instincts... a kitty-cat rope bridge from the balcony to the nearest tree?
Have a beer with a butcher. Talk to a zookeeper or make friends with a veterinarian. Invite them to dinner tonight. The kitten is an intriguing dilemma for anyone, especially cat-loving vets.
Make the best damn cat door you can make, and remember she isn't going to use the litterbox if it is full of cat shit, especially in the cold weather.
She is so fucking cute, there is simply no way she will ever go without every last thing she needs and desires. I know it. You know it. It just takes figuring out.
To the people currently at the Casa : LUCKY AWWWWWW!!!!!! I just might have to cycle all the way back to A'dam just to pet ... what IS her name, anyway?
Kitty rant /off
Love n joy,
Charlie
yes!
i agree with the first paragraph. it should be a new moto.
The powder idea sounds good
The powder idea sounds good to me.
And the name is "Salamifa Koff."
everyone loves the flea
everyone loves the flea bag
but many of us hate to support the meat industry and negitive environmental impacts.
vegetarian cat????
In a study on the impacts of the pet food industry on world fish and seafood supplies, researchers estimate that 2.48 million metric tonnes of fish are used by the cat food industry each year. It was suggested that there needs to be "a more objective and pragmatic approach to the use of a limited and decreasing biological resource, for human benefit." Marine conservation activist Paul Watson argues that the reduction in forage fish such as those commonly used in cat food (sardines, herring, anchovy etc.) negatively affects fish higher up the food chain like cod, tuna and swordfish, not to mention marine mammals and birds.
so...we need an option but......
Cats are obligate carnivores and require nutrients (including arginine, taurine, arachidonic acid, vitamin A, vitamin B12 and niacin) found in meat sources that cannot be obtained in sufficient amount in plant sources
Malnutrition has been seen in cats fed "natural", "organic", or "vegetarian" diets produced by owners with good intentions, and most published recipes have been only crudely balanced (by computer) using nutrient averages. Because the palatability, digestibility, and safety of these recipes have not been adequately or scientifically tested, it is difficult to characterize all of these homemade diets. Generally, most formulations contain excessive protein and phosphorus and are deficient in calcium, vitamin E, and microminerals such as copper, zinc, and potassium. Also, the energy density of these diets may be unbalanced relative to the other nutrients. Commonly used meat and carbohydrate ingredients contain more phosphorus than calcium. Homemade feline diets that are not actually deficient in fat or energy usually contain a vegetable oil that cats do not find palatable; therefore, less food is eaten causing a calorie deficiency. Rarely are homemade diets balanced for microminerals or vitamins. Owner neglect is also a frequent contributing factor in malnutrition.
Even when adequately supplemented, vegetarian diets may present other risks, such as urine acidity problems. While there are anecdotal reports linking a vegetarian diet with urinary tract problems, no documented case report or study exist. One vegan cat food manufacturer has stated that "because of the relative acidity of meat to vegetable protein, many vegan cats suffer from Urinary tract problems.
One study evaluated cats whose owners were knowledgeable about vegetarian cat diets and had self-selected to feed commercial and/or homemade vegetarian diets.Cobalamin (vitamin B12) and taurine, two nutrients lacking in vegetarian food, was tested for. The study found that all the cats had serum cobalamin levels within the reference range but 3 of 17 cats had serum taurine values below the reference range. While low blood taurine level is indicative of long-term deficiency, the values were described as "marginal, but... not clinically deficient".
bla bla bla bla.
i guess its best to feed the fucker meat, but please no fish based food, the ocean will be more beautiful if we dont rape it for ourselves or our pets. organic chicken? poor fucking birds dont know whats coming to them, but kitty can eat.
so what does this mean for a vegetairan house? are we partly consumers of meat production when we buy cat food or is only the cat?
nature is nature, but is the pet food production natural? doubt it. so...should we get scraps from the butcher and cook up a meaty dinner for her in the kitchen. oh the drama.
what do you think?
cat goes vegan
Go here for advice and buy something to start feeding her vegan food. If no cash available, reimbursement will come http://www.vega-life.nl/webshop/route.php
I found a shop in Germany where the food is even cheaper, but need to investigate more.
did anyone go to this shop
did anyone go to this shop already? I heard they got some really nice food for me. It is balanced, it contains all the nutrition values I need, and besides it is vegetarian, according to the house ethics :)
I love you guys, please love me also :)
Meow
I think its important that we try to resolve these issues rather than just getting rid of the kitten because its easier.
The kitty litter can be solved easily by putting it in the dungeon and the vetinary expenses could maybe come from the donations box? She is a part of the casa now, we have taken responsibility for her and we can't just dispose of her when we feel like it.
These kind of challenges are good for us. We will just have to be creative to over come them.
If the decision is made to get rid of her then i really think she should go to a friend of the casa...It will be a sad day.
I agree we shouldn't get rid
I agree we shouldn't get rid of the kitten just because it's easier. It's also true that she adds something to the house. I wasn't here when the decision was made so its a bit late but I do think that an appartement isn't a place for a cat and the need for a pet is somehow unfair towards animals.
If we can manage to make a hole in the door it'll make things easier in the winter but I'm not convinced it is possible to do so without damaging the door.
My point is that the cat probably shouldn't have become a host in the first place but now it's here... It's sad to give it away but if we it's going to happen it can happen only now because later it won't be a cute kitten anymore. I'm not totally sure which option is the least irresponsible between keeping it and giving it to someone but Alison is right: if we give it then it should go to a friend of the casa.
Whatever the decision is, it should be made soon and then we'll have to stick with it...
happy
we finally have a conflict :)
some solutions:
* litter box can go in the dungeon on the balcony
* we can make little doors in the bigger doors
Think creative.
ya i think we should keep it
ya i think we should keep it in the dungeon already so we have more room and a more welcoming balcony.
small door will work as long as we can manage to make it winterized as to not have much heat loss.
are there any tools to saw with? we need a carpender host. well....alison builds shelfs!hehe
Fit-a-Cat-Flap
uhm, use drill to make four holes in the wooden balcony door and a saw to connect the holes. A good kick will do the rest :)
After implemented successfully we can do the balcony door... but need someone more specialised for that as we don't really want to screw this door up.
see for more professional instructions:
http://www.wikihow.com/Fit-a-Cat-Flap
http://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+make+a+cat+door
why the cat needs to go
The issue (at least for me) isn't that the kitten is having a bad life in the casa - I've known plenty of happy housecats. The 2 main problems in my eyes are:
1) Litter box - There's no room for it inside. and nobody's given me a compelling solution for dealing with winter that won't hugely increase the energy we spend on heating. Leaving the door open is certainly no good. I don't think that the door can really support a proper cat door, and an attempt at one will likely ruin the door. I really don't see us managing to put in a cat door that doesn't leak heat. This goes against the environmental sustainability aspect, and more importantly is going to make it harder to keep the casa going by increasing the amount that needs to be raised each month.
2) Spaying/expenses - I don't think anyone disputes that the cat needs to be spayed if she stays in the casa. Who's going to pay for it? More generally, taking care of a pet sometimes involves big expenses (an emergency trip to the vet for example). I don't see how somebody's going to get reimbursed for paying for that stuff, and we often have hosts in the casa who can't afford that out of pocket. Imagine that the cat develops and abscess or starts choking on something - who deals with it? Does it come out of the rent money? You can't dumpster-dive a vet.
The cat is cute now. Everybody loves it. But it's irresponsible to just shrug off the impending problems for somebody else to deal with down the line. No need to throw her in the canal - just put up an ad on marketplatz: "free to a good home".